Boundaries (or none)

Nobody taught us to say no — and in this episode, we're talking about why.

Join us as we get candid about the ways we learned from a young age to be agreeable, selfless, and endlessly available. We share our own stories — as mother and daughter — of losing ourselves in relationships, roles, and responsibilities because we never learned that boundaries weren't selfish. They're necessary for healthy relationships!.

This episode is for every woman who has ever felt guilty for saying what she needs.

We'd love to hear from you at www.juliepowellcoaching.com... Use any button to contact us until we set up our podcast connections.

Transcript

Tempo: 120.0

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Welcome to Honestly Ever After where Real Conversations make Real Relationships. I'm Julie. I'm Fate. I am in my 50s. I am a relational life coach, and I've been married for more than 30 years. My husband and I have eight kids.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

And I am in my early 20s. I am in a relationship of about two years, and I'm one of those eight kids.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Together we are diving into what it actually takes to build healthy, lasting relationships in your 20s and 30s, and even before. No fairy tales, just honest talk about love, regulation, boundaries, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

So whether you're single, dating, or figuring it out as you go, we're happy you're here. This is episode eight, if I'm not mistaken. And today we are talking about how boundaries bring you closer. Boundaries are not the walls that keep people out, they're the blueprint for how you want to be loved.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Oh, I love that. Yeah, me too. Blueprint for how you want to be loved. So boundaries, what they actually are. It's kind of a pop for psych phrase that's really popular right now. When you hear boundaries, what first comes to mind?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

I think of like boundaries between friends in a friendship, depending on the type of friend or how close we are. What am I comfortable with? What am I not comfortable with? Mostly emotional, like on an emotional level. And I suppose the same thing for romantic relationships as well, but that doesn't come as naturally to me, setting boundaries in a romantic relationship. Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Why?

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Because I the idea of like being known and knowing someone so deeply, and the idea of having this equal counterpart kind of in my head, boundaries counteract that. But I don't think that's true. But that's kind of my default assumption.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Yeah. Okay. So you almost like, well, there's the old phrase of the two shall become one.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

So then there's this idea of somehow you kind of do this mind meld or emotions meld. Yeah. That's super, super important, I think, to just name that because I learned that too. You're supposed to have no boundaries in a however the title of our podcast today is when what is it? How boundaries bring you closer. Or when I mean how boundaries bring you closer. Is that what we said?

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Yeah, I said how boundaries bring you closer.

unknown 3:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

So let's repeat that a few more times. How boundaries bring you closer.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

How boundaries. There will be a quiz at the end. Maybe we should do that. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

How boundaries bring you closer. You already said it, I think. Boundaries are about you and not about the other person. Sometimes you'll hear people say, I'm gonna set a boundary on that person, or I'm gonna set a boundary with that person. And it's like, don't ever talk to me like that again. Great idea if you don't like the way that they've been talking to you, but you don't actually have any agency to make that happen. You don't have any control over what they say. You can say, don't ever talk to me like that again. But that is not a boundary, that is a command. And between people who are not in the military, commands are not a respectful way of communicating. So in that particular situation, the boundary would sound like if you talk to me that way again, I will leave the room. When you talk to me that way again, I am going to not be part of this um conversation. So it's about what I will do when something happens that means that I am not feeling safe or respected or fully myself. I can't control what the other person does. I am responsible as much as I can for saying when that happens, this is what I will do.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

How does that land? Just as I'm saying that.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

That is so interesting because I'm the type of person to make up scenarios in my head and I always win the argument in my head. But that's because, right? But that's because I am able to make up what the other person is gonna say. So I'm controlling both sides. So that's something that when it comes to actual conversation where maybe I should set a boundary, the unpredictability of not being in control of the other person is really unsettling. Because I definitely thought of boundaries as something that I'd do to someone. And I think that changing the perspective to be how I'm going to react to any sort of behavior, I have a lot more control in that scenario, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. I like that a lot.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

So there are actually lots of kinds of boundaries. We've already named an example that isn't a boundary. You've mentioned emotional boundaries. This means that I'm actually not responsible for somebody else's mood. Yeah. Oh my goodness. I'm not responsible for someone else's mood or how they're dealing with life. With our friends, we want to help. We want to, you know, make things better for them when they're struggling, whatever it is. But I am not actually responsible for changing what's going on for them. Also, we have physical boundaries, obviously. And that means who comes into my space? Who can touch me? Where they can touch me, how long they touch me, whatever that is, we get to choose and say, if this happens more than I want or when I don't want, this is what I will do.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Something to be with.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

But recognizing that I do have this boundary, and it's right for me to get to say what happens in this space of myself.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah. It's really important.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

It's really empowering. Also, we tend, I tend to have zero boundaries on my time and energy. I guess I kind of got this idea that it's endlessly elastic. Do you remember the mom in The Incredibles and she's just endlessly elastic? Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a reason for that. Yeah. The idea that my energy can endlessly just incorporate a little bit more, a little bit more for someone, and just bounce right back was actually all that's true for a long time. Estrogen gives you wings. So time and energy boundaries. Like you do not owe anyone unlimited access to you.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Yeah. I mean, we all have that person who flips out if you do not immediately answer their text. Yeah. Or maybe you feel like I should always immediately answer their text. We literally are not built for unlimited access to our brain power and energy attention. We do have the amazing ability in some cases to get amazing amounts of work done in a very small period of time. But overall, if we're saying yes to something, that means we actually are saying no by default to something else. When we say, Oh, I'm not going to use my time that way. A, we don't owe an explanation or apology. And B, we then have time that we can choose, use intentionally. So the idea of I'm going to have time alone where I go and walk or go and have a massage or go and have lunch by myself. Book it, set a boundary around it.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Is my time.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Yeah. I love that. I love that. It's like because that also brings in agency as well. Because, like you said, if you're saying yes to something because you feel like you have to, you're deep by default saying no to something else that you may have wanted to say yes to for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

So I I like that having doesn't mean prioritize exactly what you want all the time. It's not a description for selfishness. It's just being aware of our actual limitations.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

And and taking control of your own time.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Yeah. I mean, really, it's taking responsibility for your own time.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

I read one guy who's like, it's not that I'm so busy. It's that I'm limited. Like if somebody asks to do something else. Our default, like culturally supported default, is I'm so busy. You just wouldn't even believe I'm absolutely sniped. Yeah. Right? And we feel like we almost have to justify ourselves saying, I don't have the bandwidth for that.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

So we talked about your physical body boundary, but you also have your phone, your computer, your stuff in your room, whatever, that is yours. That is a boundary. And if somebody processes that but doesn't respect that that's yours, that is a boundary violation. And then there's also values-based boundaries, things that you have chosen that are really valuable and important to you, and you don't want to compromise those.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Um, I just saw a super beautiful ad. It's a Coke ad. So they want to sponsor us, maybe. Woman who's like walking through the city, working all, you know, in and out, but walking, walking, walking all day. It's hot. And she's wearing hijab, and you can tell she's just really tired, really hungry, really thirsty. And then this other woman who's out jogging, like sports bra, sees her, notices, and buys her a Coke. It was just like strange is on a street, and she offers it to her, but the first one won't drink it. She's like, All right. And then she realizes the first woman is standing looking towards the west, waiting for the sun to go down. And it's Ramadan. And as soon as the sun goes down, then she gratefully accepts the gift of the drink. So that was a boundary that she had set. I am faster from sunup to sundown. And sh that's a value-space boundary.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

That is such a beautiful Coke ad. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Oh my goodness, it's gorgeous. You've got to go and see it.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Um, so just made me think of that. But those value-space kind of boundaries. So boundaries becoming clearer, the concept.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Oh, yeah. Well, I think my concept of boundaries has changed in the past 10 minutes. My could just because, like I said before, I definitely thought of boundaries as something that I impose on someone else, but it's much less intimidating to think of boundaries as something that I put around myself.

unknown 12:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

And something that I get to choose to do if they're not respected. Another big misunderstanding about boundaries is that they are that it's an ultimatum. If you do that, you're not gonna throw your stuff out on the front porch.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

One time I did tell my roommate if if he left out his uh his dishes again, I would put them under his bed.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

I mean okay, so I think we're responding that it's sometimes it's difficult to tell the difference between a boundary. Because that is a boundary. It's like, all right, if this happens again, this is what I am going to do.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

It was a lie, but I wasn't actually gonna do that.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

Maybe that is an ultimate, and then maybe a boundary is like, so here's the big thing is a boundary has to be something that you are willing to follow through on. Oh, so hard. Yeah. There were so many times parenting where I would be like, if you don't stop, let we're gonna leave. And I don't want to leave.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

I will turn this car around. No, you won't.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Okay, so there's an ultimatum. A boundary again is from your own self-awareness and to protect yourself. An ultimatum is trying to control someone else's behavior.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

It's really, really important to get a feel for wait, am I trying to control them or am I just taking responsibility for what I will choose to do?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

And it's also like an ultimatum is it involves some sort of threat. And I don't think that a boundary has to have a threat.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

No, yeah, it doesn't. In fact, it's the opposite of threatening. It is yeah, I care enough about myself and about us, but about how I am that I am going to do X if Y continues or if Y happens. It's very hopeful. You have agency, you're doing something, you have a plan. And like I said, don't put a boundary in place that you will not enforce. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I think that you've already mentioned this idea of kind of like just meshing with the other person in a relationship, in a romantic relationship, and sometimes in friendships.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

And sometimes with family members. Sometimes parents will do this with even with children. They will just kind of mesh with them. It's like there's no appropriate boundaries. Okay. So healthy relationships are actually not melded relationships where there's no difference between the two of you.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

It's exactly the opposite.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Well, I think that this relationship that you and I are building really good boundaries, especially with the podcast. I when I was growing up, I don't think that you and I had established boundaries. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

I didn't have any idea what boundaries are.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that this podcast, for example, we have the pass rule, and I never have to talk about something I don't want to talk about. I never have to explain why. And vice versa. I think that though these are really comfortable boundaries for me, which is why it's possible for me to talk about my romantic relationship with my mother.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

I know.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

It's kind of crazy. Yeah, it is crazy. I think I don't remember who I think it was my sister-in-law. She said, Do you think it'll get to a point where you guys can't talk anymore? And I was like, I don't think so because I I never feel like I have to talk.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Because there's boundaries around.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Because there's boundaries. Yeah. And they were spoken, established, not assumed boundaries.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Made explicit. Yes. It's really, really important. I'll tell you one of the things that guy I see a few times every week is do you think you should knock on your teenage kids' bedroom doors or should you just burst in? So there's an example of a physical boundary.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

And I grew up in situations where it's like you do not have a right to privacy. Mostly because, you know, it would be good to catch you in the act of doing something wrong. Not that my parents ever actually did board chain, but it was just this, I think it was in the larger culture of like kids, it's better for them to get caught than. So there's always this assumption that they're doing something wrong.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

But they're doing something wrong, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

So this was something that actually that my now 13-year-old, who is your brother, brought up with me because I was doing that. Yeah. He's still in grade school. He's not working or driving or adult of major age. But I was not respecting his space. And thankfully, before he became really resentful, or before I crossed way too many boundaries, he actually did raise it with me. When you just barge it to my room, that just feels awful. And you're not really respecting my space. And thankfully, another chance. And I was, and now I'm really careful about it. And after I started observing that boundary that he had asked me to respect, he felt so much more able to be real or to be honest or to be close with emotionally because he wasn't afraid that I was just gonna barge in on yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yeah. And for me, oh sorry. Well, first of all, I'm so proud of him for bringing that up. That's he is such an amazing person. For me, with that specific example of someone barging into my room without knocking, which doesn't happen much when I'm at home because I am an adult, but it's almost like if that it does happen where someone just comes into my room and I don't expect it, I feel so like I'm not prepared. I'm not prepared to host you in my room right now. But if someone knocks and I have those two seconds to be like, oh, someone's coming in, then I can be like, okay, I'll have a conversation. I'm good now. It's good. I think it might be the same for him, where it's just like you feel kind of bombarded. Yeah. Um, I think that goes for all kinds of boundaries.

unknown 18:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Where it's like just if you have the warning, the moment to prepare, then things can proceed but in a more healthy manner.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Yeah. In the relational coaching that I do, we talk about healthy boundaries as being porous. They're not a wall or a piece of sheetrock or whatever. You you can choose what comes in. You can choose to that's what you're describing. It's like, okay, there's my boundary, and I'm going to choose to welcome this person in. We'll chat for a little while, but they don't get to just like overwhelm me. They do don't get to flood into my space. And so there's two kinds of boundary failures that we talk about in coaching. This is really important. It's very expensive stuff that I'm telling you now. Two kinds of boundary failures. It's the failure to have a boundary. So the a boundary that's too porous, that lets too much in. Everything that you say to me, you know, if you ever said something like, you know, oh, you're just so needy, mom, or whatever. And I let that in. I didn't have a boundary that said, huh. I wonder why she's saying that. I wonder what part of it is true. I I'm not gonna let that define me, but I need to look at it and consider and make wise decisions about it and maybe change my actions about it. Okay. So boundarylessness means that everything that comes at you affects you bigly.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

And you also could have a boundary that is too rigid. And we've all met these people, they're just like, I can't get through to you. You have cut yourself off from me. Yeah. We can interact, but there's no actual connection.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Yeah? Yeah. Okay. So you can't set a boundary that you don't recognize for your own self. You already said it. You've got to make it explicit. But lots of us, especially those of us who grew up in situations where we weren't really even allowed to have boundaries, or in cultures where having a boundary was um socially dism, what am I trying to say? Socially unacceptable.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Yeah, discouraged. Um learning what it is that is my boundary. Where does my emotional self need care and protection? And where does my emotional self need to let in maybe somebody who wants to care for me in a healthy way? Um why am I feeling so angry because this person keeps talking? Well, maybe, maybe I haven't had enough to eat. You know, there's a lot of things that I can do to take care of myself. Okay, so this person's talking. And I was willing to be involved in this conversation. It's turning into not quite so much of a conversation. It's just them talking. Maybe they're upset about something.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Okay. So I'm already in this situation, but what is it that I'm feeling? I'm starting to feel resentful. I'm starting to feel taken advantage of. I'm starting to feel frustrated.

unknown 22:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

So, okay. Now where's my boundary? Hey, can I stop you there? I'm feeling a little bit overwhelmed. I need a little break. Can we come back to this conversation later? That would be a boundary.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Yeah. Which would be hard for me to put in place because I once I get to the point where I'm in a conversation and someone's talking, talking, talking, I don't want to be rude. Which is, I think we've been brought up to just to not be rude. But it's but maybe it's not being rude. Maybe it's just setting a boundary. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Maybe it is caring for the relationship enough to say I'm not okay in this situation right now.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

But why is it so hard?

SPEAKER_00 23:10

To set a boundary. Yeah. Because I feel like okay, so I was I was brought up in a pretty strictly religious environment with kind of standard traditional gender roles. And as a woman, as a girl, I am here to give all of myself.

unknown 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

I'm meant to be completely disposable. Like you have all access to me. I'm here to support, provide, take care of, la-da-da. So setting a boundary feels like going against that ever said out loud? No. Oh, never. No, so setting a boundary is going against these incredibly harmful ideas. Very sexist ideas that a woman is supposed to be like 100% available all the time.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Boundaryless.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Bound a woman is supposed to be boundaryless. So setting a boundary is almost like it just goes against my my nurture. Not my nature. It goes against what I was nurtured into.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Yeah, the modeling for sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

What was so that's actually I still can't crack that. The idea that as a woman I am supposed to be all here for you, which I don't believe that at all. And I never tell myself that. It just happened. It just happens because it's been happening since I was born. Yeah. Well for hundreds and thousands of years before.

unknown 24:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

You and you know, everyone. Right. Uh, because this is the air that we breathe in our culture or in cultures around the world. It is amazingly insidious. And just naming it is really brave. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Thank you. It felt really brave.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

And you did it. We never saw healthy boundaries modeled, especially as women. Now, I could stereotype that maybe there's another version of unhealthy boundaries that a lot of guys absorb. I think it is harmful both ways.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Yeah. Oh, yeah. The model is terrible for everyone involved.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Right? It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense because it doesn't get us the connection that we're really wired for, that we're really built for. We really are built to connect. It's necessary just to survive. It's such a source of delight when it's good.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

So just neurobiologically, being rejected actually really triggers some very, very unpleasant, very, very uncomfortable chemical feelings. So when you're with someone that you value that you're close with, that makes that even more intense. So disapproval or rejection by somebody that is really close to you feels even riskier.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Oh yeah. Like a hundred times. I actually have an example for this, what you were just talking about. I've said before on the podcast that I started my relationship with Angel quite boundaryless. And we were long distance while I was at school. And he would he works restaurant, so he would be out late. And I would I would like I even was teaching spin at six in the morning. So our circadian rhythms were very offset each other.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

But I, you know, I wanted to talk to him on the phone after work. And so he would call me every day after work at like 11 o'clock. And I would, I would sometimes stay up for this, or sometimes I would go to sleep and wake up for this, which is wild. And well, I mean, not entirely. Like sometimes I'll still do that because I, you know, want to talk to him for a bit, but I would stay up for hours. So I would be up until one or two in the morning when he would go to sleep. And then I would sleep for four four or five hours, get up and do my entire day all over again.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

So that was a boundary that I failed to set. I didn't know how to. And it was just like I wanted to take whatever he was willing to give me. I was so desperate for attention and acknowledgement and mostly mostly just attention. I was so desperate for attention and connection that I would completely sacrifice my health for this.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

It was always a fear of if I told him I'm not gonna call tonight, or if I got off the phone early, that he would be angry for some reason, which is based in nothing because he had never given me any any indication he would literally this guy would not do that. Yeah. No, I had this fear that he would be upset and he wouldn't call again the next day, or something, these crazy ideas in my head. And then a year of this goes by, and the next year at school, I started saying, I just have to go to bed early tonight and I'll talk to you for a bit on the phone, but I'm gonna go to sleep. And of course, Angel's like, Okay, amazing. I'll call you tomorrow. Like, love you, good night. And it just worked, uh, it was fine. What? I guess I know crazy. And then I get to get have it.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Um love that.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

But he but then I didn't lose the attention, I didn't lose the connection. It actually feels more rich and more authentic because I'm getting what I need, I'm setting my boundaries, and his love is still coming in in other ways, if not even more so than before.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

You were willing to take a risk.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Yeah, and I didn't know what was gonna happen, even though all the data said all the data about Angel was pretty positive.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

But but there's the fear of like if I suddenly am not constantly available, yeah, then I'll be rejected. Yeah, yeah. But by taking the risk, you gave the message that this does matter to me enough to risk the response because I do want it to be healthy for us. It is really hard. It's yeah, you know, like you said, most of us never learned this, and we certainly never saw it done. We talked already about growing up in a culture where boundaries they were literally seen as selfish. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, and keeping the peace, just not rocking the boat, just absorbing whatever, making it okay, was that was more important than having limits. I know that I would do that, and then because my limits had been crossed and I had allowed that on one side, I would then turn around and actually almost like take it out in other ways, not other people, in other relationships. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Yeah, I can't.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

I don't want to give any specifics because you know, podcast out there. No, I know what you mean. But because I was boundaryless in one direction and that built up this resentment and crossed my limits, and I gave too much, then I was awful in other ways to other people who had nothing to do with the actual boundary crossing, my lack of boundaries in the first situation. You probably won't conjure up out of thin air how to have healthy limits and boundaries, but you can learn to do it, recognizing that it's uncomfortable, but that it's worth it. Because otherwise, yeah, honestly, it's like you're selling your soul.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Really.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Which is not a good feeling.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

It's not a good feeling. It's a terrible bargain. There's a whole play about it. Yeah. And we do it often without even recognizing it. Yeah. We've already mentioned that, especially for women, it can be that we're socialized to be pleasing, to be agreeable, to make things work. But people pleasing, it's not honest. And I am the people pleaser in chief. If you want to look at how to be a perfect people pleaser, you may come and watch old. If I could show you old videos of me, like I was taught and I became an excellent addict.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

It's a way of protecting and controlling. And I was so mortified when I had to start thinking about the fact that I was actually being controlling of situations by being nice, by people pleasing. No, we've talked about double the time that we thought it would take for this episode on boundaries. So we're gonna end episode eight right here. There's gonna be an episode nine in season one on boundaries, finishing off this conversation. And Faith has a real doozy of a story, real life stuff. You can't make this up. Then we're gonna finish season one, which has been so much fun and we've learned so much, and I hope you have too. And we'll see you in season two, which we are already planning and we're super excited about. If you have enjoyed what you've heard, and there's still another episode after this for season one, would you leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening? Because that tells the algorithm that this is good stuff and you should definitely share it with other people. And so the algorithm puts it out there in the world for us. So that would be a huge, huge, huge help. Let us know what you think. We're always open to suggestions and ideas, and enjoy episode nine still to come, and we'll see you in season two. Thank you so much for joining us on Honestly Ever After. If today's conversation resonated with you at all, would you like, share, follow, download, and reach out to us on Julie Powellcoaching.com. Building great relationships takes honesty and intention and a whole lot of kindness to yourself and the other person. We'll see you next time.